I really enjoyed that essay by Paul Graham. Paul Graham is an excellent writer and a very nice fellow. But when he said that thing that made me look bad, I just had to draw the line. For years, I’ve been doing something and telling people I’m doing it and then all of a sudden Paul Graham comes along and tells me it’s a bad idea. I think it’s time to question his assumptions.
Here’s where Graham really goes off the rails. What if we don’t want to do what he suggests? Graham never considers that possibility. He just assumes that he’s right.
For too long, Paul Graham has gotten a free ride by saying things that disagree with people’s prejudices in an informative and entertaining manner. That was fine when all we had to do was link to his article and read it. But this time he’s gone too far: he’s said something that might actually make me change how I behave. And that’s unacceptable.
wtf?
posted by rjl
on September 21, 2005 #
Couldn’t agree more rjl.
posted by Jason Gilman
on September 21, 2005 #
The timing on this article is perfect … Thank you.
Putting his name in the title was a crime, I’m glad the author removed it. At the same time, I’m also glad that things like reddit.com hasn’t forgotten it.
btw: I think rss2email is extremely useful. My computer uses it every 15 minutes, she’s an addict. Good luck in your ventures Aaron.
posted by Chris Cera
on September 21, 2005 #
I’m so glad that someone stood up to him finally. Some of what he says at <http://www.paulgraham.com/opensource.html > such as about Amateurs is a bunch of bull crap. He has also made statements about being an entrepreneur and suggesting that only young people can or should take entrepreneurial risks and that its not such a good idea to do so when you’re older and have a mortgage and/or a family. FIrst of all, why does everyone who is older need to by paying a bank a mortgage? Hey Paul, have you ever read the book Rich Dad, Poor Dad?
My father took a calculated risk by starting a business when he was 45 years of age (and yes he had a mortgage and two kids and it wasn’t always comfortable in the early startup days but his business has lasted him decades). Paul Graham is not “god” and some of what he says really ought to not be left unchecked and thank you Aaron for having the guts to stand up to him.
posted by Chauka
on September 21, 2005 #
Great post. I have no fracking clue what it’s about though. :-)
posted by Jim Pick
on September 21, 2005 #
Just to get this clear: Are you’re saying that telling someone that they have to change how they behave is unacceptable? Or is it more limited: Telling you that you should chance your behavior is unacceptable?
Why is it unacceptable?
From what I read it allright as long as it’s just ignorable philosophy; But at the moment his philosophy is no longer ignorable, when your get the feeling that you need to make real changes (improvements?) then it’s allright for you to burn him down in public?
You sound very american (in the bad imperial way) in this post.
posted by gmlk
on September 21, 2005 #
I have to jump up and down and stamp my feet at this outrage of a webpost.
What you’ve said clearly contravenes what any rational, clear-minded, well-intentioned person would say on this topic.
Several important people have also proved you wrong by expressing contrary opinions and I think that just about wraps it up for you, and, to be frank, those who support you in any manner while you hold such an opinion.
As the learned ‘gmlk’ states in the comment preceding this one:
You sound very american (in the bad
imperial way) in this post
By which i think we can paraphrase his true meaning:
You blah blah American (blah blah Bad
blah blah) blah blah blah
And in summary, please retract your statements forthwith or clarify them as actually meaning the opposite or something else altogether, preferably in keeping with whatever i am thinking at the time of your next writing.
sincerely.
lb
posted by Leon
on September 26, 2005 #
OK, I looked in the desk drawer and found the key, but it doesn’t fit the door. The note behind the curtain seems to be in a foreign language. And the phone does not give me a dial tone.
posted by Dan Hartung
on September 21, 2005 #
LOL. A satire worthy of Swift :)
posted by gernika
on September 21, 2005 #
Hehe, yeah gernika, not everybody gets it right away, apparently. ;)
Paul Graham has always written the way he has written. That (among real reasoning) includes making assertions and peddling his own views as a kind of fact. The same people that are applauding Graham for “brilliant reasoning” when he makes assertions that fit their world-view, criticize him for the absurdity of even making assertions, when they don’t fit their world-view. Not that they shouldn’t, but the inconsistency is just funny in an ironic kind of way. :)
posted by Sencer
on September 21, 2005 #
err what is the point of this?
You establishing a reputation and personality off the back of Paul Graham?
Man, you’re pretty shameless and petty.
You think you’ve stumbled onto a gold landfill by realizing you don’t agree with Graham? How many millions of people have read a paul graham essay?
Are you presuming to tell us that every single one of us is supposed to agree with him to make him valid? Of course not, and neither would Graham I suspect.
Whether you choose to agree or not is up to you. But Graham backs up his word with some good thought and informed opinions.
YOU??? what do you base it on? the need to get noticed?
posted by alex
on September 21, 2005 #
alex: letting off that rant after we are clued up by gernika’s post is just a little embarrasing, don’t you think?
Well done to Aaron, while being really obvious (“But when he said that thing that made me look bad, I just had to draw the line”) you managed to fool quite a few of the recipients of your critcism. Nice.
posted by Chris
on September 21, 2005 #
I think folks are missing Aaron’s joke here.
But if they wanted some better essays that take issue with some of PG’s assertions, you could find them in Eric Sink’s “Great Hackers != Great Hires”:
http://software.ericsink.com/entries/No_Great_Hackers.html
Or, in “Dabblers and Blowhards”:
http://www.idlewords.com/2005/04/dabblers_and_blowhards.htm
I’ve seen less feedback on PG’s essay on economic inequality (http://www.paulgraham.com/inequality.html). I’m guessing because people don’t take him seriously when he is so far afield of what he knows about.
posted by Steve
on September 21, 2005 #
Well, that explains it all then.
posted by gmlk
on September 21, 2005 #
Heh. I don’t know which of Paul Graham’s ruminations this is referring to, and I don’t think I want to know. Then again, now I don’t want to read anything written by ESR either.
(In unrelated news: anyone want to help translate Pax Neo-TeX? Please? :-) )
posted by bi
on September 21, 2005 #
I’m a bit slow, but I get it now. This is the best thing that’s ever been written. :-)
posted by Jim Pick
on September 21, 2005 #
I’m still trying to decide whether this reads better as intentional simple satire or unintentional self-satire. I guess it depends on who’s more intrinsically amusing - the knee-jerk PG haters or the knee-jerk PG lovers. Is it more ridiculous to assume that PG is wrong when he tells others how to do what they do, or to assume that he’s right.
OK, I think I have my answer now. Thanks.
posted by Platypus
on September 22, 2005 #
Paul who?
posted by Schilling
on September 24, 2005 #
No.
posted by Still
on October 5, 2005 #
Actually, I didn’t recognize the quote in any of Paul Grahams essays as well. I read all of them and they really made me think. Paul was the one who drew my attention to LISP actually and since then I am fancying it.
What most people fail to understand is that Paul Graham is a mere mortal and not God. Just the way he expresses his opinions, firm and selfconcious, does not mean he is not reacting to critics. I actually sent him a mail regarding one of his essays where I expressed a different opinion and he could let that stand, he just expressed what he meant when he wrote his statement and that our two opinions were not even diametral.
So I can only suggest to take Pauls essays as what they are, HIS opinions. Think about it, agree, disagree. If you have done that, I think Paul and everyone has won, because we came out of our lazyness and started a dialoque, either with ourselves of even with him.
So write him your opinions and I am sure he will think about it, send you an answer and take your opinion into account when writing his next essay.
This is the way science, society and about everything evolves : by dialoque !
posted by Bernhard Graf
on October 6, 2005 #
Bernhard Graf: would that I can manufacture a nuclear weapon by conducting lots of dialogue. :-\ Now seriously, I have no problems with people expressing their opinions, but when people start to sell their opinion as Fact(tm), that’s where I draw the line. And people who try to sell opinion as Fact(tm) and then yell “but that was just an opinion!” when their Facts(tm) don’t even match reality, they’re below low.
posted by bi
on October 10, 2005 #
Someone on this thread commented about PG’s essay on economic inequality. Now, not to start a flamewar, but I don’t see anything objectionable about the essay. Most of what it says is basically true, and what of the essay that might be contested is just stating stuff that most people don’t want to hear. It’s focus is more to discuss startups, of which he does have experience. I personally wish PG would stop writing editorials, (though he has much better taste in programming languages than a group of java programmers who were trashing him on their blogs because they probably haven’t considered using anything but java.) I’m getting sick of his narsicsstic/strawman writing style.
But please don’t compare him to ESR. He is 100x the hacker that guy was, or ever would be. I just wish he’d stop pigeonholing everything with his unbalanced essays… (though I will say, he got me interested in Common Lisp about 6 years ago).
Anyway, he definitely knows what he’s talking about in computer science, but I wish he’d stop it with this “hackers are this/that” mumbo jumbo.
posted by Bob
on December 15, 2005 #
Is this some sort of paul graham essay generating macro? If so, aren’t you worried about varibale capture by ambiguous uses of the symbol “thing”?
posted by just another guy
on October 6, 2005 #
Oh, and whoever said, “You sound very american” as an insult absolutely went below the belt. I mention this because I just saw another blog that did the same thing… so pitiful. Since when has it been trendy to use that strawman?
If you have to resort to that level of snobbery, I’m sorry, but Paul Graham has never stooped to that level.
Just a thought to whoever said that, presumably to be trendy. (and ironically that person is probably American, or I would suspect anyhow)
posted by
on December 15, 2005 #
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Comments
wtf?
posted by rjl on September 21, 2005 #
Couldn’t agree more rjl.
posted by Jason Gilman on September 21, 2005 #
The timing on this article is perfect … Thank you.
Putting his name in the title was a crime, I’m glad the author removed it. At the same time, I’m also glad that things like reddit.com hasn’t forgotten it.
btw: I think rss2email is extremely useful. My computer uses it every 15 minutes, she’s an addict. Good luck in your ventures Aaron.
posted by Chris Cera on September 21, 2005 #
I’m so glad that someone stood up to him finally. Some of what he says at <http://www.paulgraham.com/opensource.html > such as about Amateurs is a bunch of bull crap. He has also made statements about being an entrepreneur and suggesting that only young people can or should take entrepreneurial risks and that its not such a good idea to do so when you’re older and have a mortgage and/or a family. FIrst of all, why does everyone who is older need to by paying a bank a mortgage? Hey Paul, have you ever read the book Rich Dad, Poor Dad?
My father took a calculated risk by starting a business when he was 45 years of age (and yes he had a mortgage and two kids and it wasn’t always comfortable in the early startup days but his business has lasted him decades). Paul Graham is not “god” and some of what he says really ought to not be left unchecked and thank you Aaron for having the guts to stand up to him.
posted by Chauka on September 21, 2005 #
Great post. I have no fracking clue what it’s about though. :-)
posted by Jim Pick on September 21, 2005 #
Just to get this clear: Are you’re saying that telling someone that they have to change how they behave is unacceptable? Or is it more limited: Telling you that you should chance your behavior is unacceptable?
Why is it unacceptable?
From what I read it allright as long as it’s just ignorable philosophy; But at the moment his philosophy is no longer ignorable, when your get the feeling that you need to make real changes (improvements?) then it’s allright for you to burn him down in public?
You sound very american (in the bad imperial way) in this post.
posted by gmlk on September 21, 2005 #
I have to jump up and down and stamp my feet at this outrage of a webpost.
What you’ve said clearly contravenes what any rational, clear-minded, well-intentioned person would say on this topic.
Several important people have also proved you wrong by expressing contrary opinions and I think that just about wraps it up for you, and, to be frank, those who support you in any manner while you hold such an opinion.
As the learned ‘gmlk’ states in the comment preceding this one:
By which i think we can paraphrase his true meaning:
And in summary, please retract your statements forthwith or clarify them as actually meaning the opposite or something else altogether, preferably in keeping with whatever i am thinking at the time of your next writing.
sincerely. lb
posted by Leon on September 26, 2005 #
OK, I looked in the desk drawer and found the key, but it doesn’t fit the door. The note behind the curtain seems to be in a foreign language. And the phone does not give me a dial tone.
posted by Dan Hartung on September 21, 2005 #
LOL. A satire worthy of Swift :)
posted by gernika on September 21, 2005 #
Hehe, yeah gernika, not everybody gets it right away, apparently. ;)
Paul Graham has always written the way he has written. That (among real reasoning) includes making assertions and peddling his own views as a kind of fact. The same people that are applauding Graham for “brilliant reasoning” when he makes assertions that fit their world-view, criticize him for the absurdity of even making assertions, when they don’t fit their world-view. Not that they shouldn’t, but the inconsistency is just funny in an ironic kind of way. :)
posted by Sencer on September 21, 2005 #
err what is the point of this?
You establishing a reputation and personality off the back of Paul Graham?
Man, you’re pretty shameless and petty.
You think you’ve stumbled onto a gold landfill by realizing you don’t agree with Graham? How many millions of people have read a paul graham essay?
Are you presuming to tell us that every single one of us is supposed to agree with him to make him valid? Of course not, and neither would Graham I suspect.
Whether you choose to agree or not is up to you. But Graham backs up his word with some good thought and informed opinions.
YOU??? what do you base it on? the need to get noticed?
posted by alex on September 21, 2005 #
alex: letting off that rant after we are clued up by gernika’s post is just a little embarrasing, don’t you think?
Well done to Aaron, while being really obvious (“But when he said that thing that made me look bad, I just had to draw the line”) you managed to fool quite a few of the recipients of your critcism. Nice.
posted by Chris on September 21, 2005 #
I think folks are missing Aaron’s joke here.
But if they wanted some better essays that take issue with some of PG’s assertions, you could find them in Eric Sink’s “Great Hackers != Great Hires”:
http://software.ericsink.com/entries/No_Great_Hackers.html
Or, in “Dabblers and Blowhards”:
http://www.idlewords.com/2005/04/dabblers_and_blowhards.htm
I’ve seen less feedback on PG’s essay on economic inequality (http://www.paulgraham.com/inequality.html). I’m guessing because people don’t take him seriously when he is so far afield of what he knows about.
posted by Steve on September 21, 2005 #
Well, that explains it all then.
posted by gmlk on September 21, 2005 #
Heh. I don’t know which of Paul Graham’s ruminations this is referring to, and I don’t think I want to know. Then again, now I don’t want to read anything written by ESR either.
(In unrelated news: anyone want to help translate Pax Neo-TeX? Please? :-) )
posted by bi on September 21, 2005 #
I’m a bit slow, but I get it now. This is the best thing that’s ever been written. :-)
posted by Jim Pick on September 21, 2005 #
Am I deluded, or is the one satirised here not Paul Graham, but rather Tim Bray?
posted by Aristotle Pagaltzis on September 21, 2005 #
I’m still trying to decide whether this reads better as intentional simple satire or unintentional self-satire. I guess it depends on who’s more intrinsically amusing - the knee-jerk PG haters or the knee-jerk PG lovers. Is it more ridiculous to assume that PG is wrong when he tells others how to do what they do, or to assume that he’s right.
OK, I think I have my answer now. Thanks.
posted by Platypus on September 22, 2005 #
Paul who?
posted by Schilling on September 24, 2005 #
No.
posted by Still on October 5, 2005 #
Dabblers and Blowhards was better.
posted by honest coward on October 6, 2005 #
Actually, I didn’t recognize the quote in any of Paul Grahams essays as well. I read all of them and they really made me think. Paul was the one who drew my attention to LISP actually and since then I am fancying it. What most people fail to understand is that Paul Graham is a mere mortal and not God. Just the way he expresses his opinions, firm and selfconcious, does not mean he is not reacting to critics. I actually sent him a mail regarding one of his essays where I expressed a different opinion and he could let that stand, he just expressed what he meant when he wrote his statement and that our two opinions were not even diametral. So I can only suggest to take Pauls essays as what they are, HIS opinions. Think about it, agree, disagree. If you have done that, I think Paul and everyone has won, because we came out of our lazyness and started a dialoque, either with ourselves of even with him. So write him your opinions and I am sure he will think about it, send you an answer and take your opinion into account when writing his next essay. This is the way science, society and about everything evolves : by dialoque !
posted by Bernhard Graf on October 6, 2005 #
Bernhard Graf: would that I can manufacture a nuclear weapon by conducting lots of dialogue. :-\ Now seriously, I have no problems with people expressing their opinions, but when people start to sell their opinion as Fact(tm), that’s where I draw the line. And people who try to sell opinion as Fact(tm) and then yell “but that was just an opinion!” when their Facts(tm) don’t even match reality, they’re below low.
posted by bi on October 10, 2005 #
Someone on this thread commented about PG’s essay on economic inequality. Now, not to start a flamewar, but I don’t see anything objectionable about the essay. Most of what it says is basically true, and what of the essay that might be contested is just stating stuff that most people don’t want to hear. It’s focus is more to discuss startups, of which he does have experience. I personally wish PG would stop writing editorials, (though he has much better taste in programming languages than a group of java programmers who were trashing him on their blogs because they probably haven’t considered using anything but java.) I’m getting sick of his narsicsstic/strawman writing style.
But please don’t compare him to ESR. He is 100x the hacker that guy was, or ever would be. I just wish he’d stop pigeonholing everything with his unbalanced essays… (though I will say, he got me interested in Common Lisp about 6 years ago).
Anyway, he definitely knows what he’s talking about in computer science, but I wish he’d stop it with this “hackers are this/that” mumbo jumbo.
posted by Bob on December 15, 2005 #
Is this some sort of paul graham essay generating macro? If so, aren’t you worried about varibale capture by ambiguous uses of the symbol “thing”?
posted by just another guy on October 6, 2005 #
Oh, and whoever said, “You sound very american” as an insult absolutely went below the belt. I mention this because I just saw another blog that did the same thing… so pitiful. Since when has it been trendy to use that strawman?
If you have to resort to that level of snobbery, I’m sorry, but Paul Graham has never stooped to that level.
Just a thought to whoever said that, presumably to be trendy. (and ironically that person is probably American, or I would suspect anyhow)
posted by on December 15, 2005 #
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